tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5249997465016074955.post3948998610734632158..comments2023-12-23T21:59:20.634-08:00Comments on The Ad Contrarian: Advertising's Arrow Of ProgressBOB HOFFMANhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05158827977385952634noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5249997465016074955.post-75608666551151766092014-12-18T09:31:24.708-08:002014-12-18T09:31:24.708-08:00The arrow of progress in advertising points direct...The arrow of progress in advertising points directly to 8 – 12 year olds. <br />How else would I have known about and purchased Orbitz (drink)? I’d just put the word out on a school yard and watch sales rise.<br /><br />And for a little education, a link to Oregon State U. engineering page on the other uses for gel beads. Go figure – art = science. http://engineering.oregonstate.edu/momentum/k12/feb05/Charlottenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5249997465016074955.post-34423880148795549402014-12-18T08:19:06.190-08:002014-12-18T08:19:06.190-08:00Look at Xiaomi in China. Only digital, only sold o...Look at Xiaomi in China. Only digital, only sold online, no retail, they just took over Samsung as the #1 smartphone brand (in the #1 mobile market in the world). But yeah, digital does jack shit for brands... ;)LeShannnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5249997465016074955.post-6557236570578949582014-12-16T11:37:39.510-08:002014-12-16T11:37:39.510-08:00The only supermarket brand I can think of is choba...The only supermarket brand I can think of is chobani, although eventually they succumbed to the lure of tv. Kate Richardsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5249997465016074955.post-91575497771854260422014-12-16T07:45:09.348-08:002014-12-16T07:45:09.348-08:00Appending my statement from yesterday while I drin...Appending my statement from yesterday while I drink my morning coffee.<br /><br /><br />I still believe most said above and all of what you said, but I've always taken issue with your supermarket analogy because I feel it suffers from a bit of myopia. None of the brands in a supermarket where born in an era where digital media existed.<br /><br /><br />There are dozens of brands that have been created solely through the use of digital media (Warby Parker, GoPro, I could go on) and you will probably never find them in a supermarket, much in the way that the supermarket is likely going to go away in a few decades.<br /><br /><br />The science of digital media is nothing special and the fundamentals of brand building are still the same, but I would shy away from saying that you can't build a brand by using the medium.Alec Painternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5249997465016074955.post-75738131691387479512014-12-16T06:10:29.359-08:002014-12-16T06:10:29.359-08:00For me, the explanation for this is quite simple. ...For me, the explanation for this is quite simple. Advertising probably could and should be, if not a science, then certainly more scientific. But the people involved don't really want it to be. The creators of advertising want it to be art - they like to think of themselves as artists, broadly. And the clients buying the advertising naturally tend to consider it so too - they may not know much about art, but they know what they like, and they judge and buy it accordingly, with a little pseudo-scientific research validation thrown in to make them feel even better about it. The whole enterprise is mostly about subjectivity, and it suits practitioners for it to be that way, not least because a whole load of them would be out of a job if it weren't. More scientific would probably mean less talking about stuff and more getting on with doing the obvious, proven, no-debate things.<br />It would also almost certainly make for uglier advertising. Take more of the art out and put more science in and you're likely to be left with some stuff that works better but doesn't look so pretty, and on the whole people like to think they're making the world a prettier place. So the instinctive appeal of art triumphs over the mechanistic efficiency of science.Harroviannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5249997465016074955.post-53070520389108465272014-12-15T13:30:01.431-08:002014-12-15T13:30:01.431-08:00My frustration stems from the fact that even those...My frustration stems from the fact that even those things we have learned are often ignored by practitioners of the "art." Colin Wheildon taught us much about typography effectiveness, Jakob Nielsen about web techniques, and the whole world of direct marketing about so much. But try to find a marketer nowadays who has any respect for direct or who even has heard of Wheildon! <br /><br /><br />It's not so much we don't know how, as that we refuse to learn about the tools, materials and methods we have. The great artists of the 19th century were required to reproduce the "academy" work before they could go out on their own. And that was a good thing. We say until we are blue in the face that we must learn the rules before we can effectively break them, but too many, I think, want to go directly to step two.Tim Orrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5249997465016074955.post-29743875246154041462014-12-15T13:13:26.698-08:002014-12-15T13:13:26.698-08:00Isn't a brand really just advertising that is ...Isn't a brand really just advertising that is successful in spite of the inability to completely measure it? Measurability makes brand and irrelevant concept.Steve Jaynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5249997465016074955.post-82216370381665782012014-12-15T12:42:57.454-08:002014-12-15T12:42:57.454-08:00Very, very few!Very, very few!Jeffrey Summershttp://SHGWW.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5249997465016074955.post-31586829034691420192014-12-15T11:30:09.576-08:002014-12-15T11:30:09.576-08:00Working in the digital media business currently, I...Working in the digital media business currently, I see the biggest obstacle to achieving any contribution to brand building is that most advertising treats digital as an interruptive, short-term sales channel. <br /><br />I'm of course stealing some words from Steve Miles of Dove Unilever, who was able to contribute to some extraordinary brand-building by starting in digital and then integrating all of those efforts in one cohesive push everywhere else. <br /><br />Generally speaking, the folks working in digital are hooked on the crack pipe of the immediate sale and the pseudo-science of digital attribution and have lost sight of the arrow of progress. But some do get it.Alec Painternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5249997465016074955.post-21535079777814312762014-12-15T08:35:11.908-08:002014-12-15T08:35:11.908-08:00I think some of the brands I've seen that have...I think some of the brands I've seen that have grown online tend to come from fandom (comic books, sci-fi, etc.) interests, but they had offline events (with support from big brands that build their empire traditionally) to build that brand. So yeah, I guess the argument is a bit moot.MangaTherapynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5249997465016074955.post-54636471873574447182014-12-15T06:54:10.374-08:002014-12-15T06:54:10.374-08:00Another thing that makes "progress" in t...Another thing that makes "progress" in this sense nigh impossible is that people get conditioned by what they're exposed to. An ad that might have been very effective 50 years ago could quite possibly be white noise today. <br /><br />You can't have a formula because every previous input can influence the present. "X" yesterday might not = "X" today, so it's always a moving target.Conor Blakenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5249997465016074955.post-49090683744213288552014-12-15T06:41:20.232-08:002014-12-15T06:41:20.232-08:00Indeed. As some malcontent on Twitter once opined,...Indeed. As some malcontent on Twitter once opined, there really is a formula for great advertising. Of course, it contains nothing but variables.Jason Foxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5249997465016074955.post-63141131588695710602014-12-15T03:08:01.544-08:002014-12-15T03:08:01.544-08:00Part of the problem is we don't have any prope...Part of the problem is we don't have any proper scientists in Advertising.<br /><br />A proper scientist would realize that there is million things that make someone buy something, and last touch attribution ignores 999,999 of them. It's literally like giving all the credit to the till person at Tesco for selling BOGOF on Holsten Pills to a drunk.<br /><br />A proper scientist would also realize we get causation wrong. If I like " coca cola" on Facebook, a sensible person would realize that I should happen to buy a can of coke, it wasn't the act of liking Facebook or an ad I saw on Facebook that may have made me buy it. Call me crazy, but people who enjoy coca cola are both more likely to like the page on facebook and buy it, but it ain't down to Facebook.<br /><br /><br />One day soon when we stop dicking around talking about "big data", the name for what in the 1990's we called "data", we will note that not only do we know loads, and loads more, but we'll realize that most of it shines lights into how much we don't know.<br /><br />The bit of illumination we do have, will show how fucking terrible most ads on digital platforms behave, the only response they get being at best being ignored or at worse, making people angry as they try to find the (x)Tomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5249997465016074955.post-19120654197193233202014-12-15T03:07:59.043-08:002014-12-15T03:07:59.043-08:00I concur.I concur.Sell! Sell!http://sellsellblog.blogspot.co.uk/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5249997465016074955.post-38710108069502009912014-12-15T02:51:48.243-08:002014-12-15T02:51:48.243-08:00Sorry, "...are all pretty absolute AND can......Sorry, "...are all pretty absolute AND can...."James Buchanannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5249997465016074955.post-82575233303382299162014-12-15T02:40:53.770-08:002014-12-15T02:40:53.770-08:00The improvements you quote are all pretty absolute...The improvements you quote are all pretty absolute can be measured in their own terms, whereas the the improvement required from advertising is relative. As culture get's noisier it gets harder to get peoples' attention.<br /><br /><br />The fact that ads get any attention at all (and some still manage to become national conversations) in a world with so many other distractions suggests to me that some improvement might have happened. That would be hard to show in data though.<br /><br /><br />As an aside, I don't think the science / art distinction helps in advertising - clearly needs both, often together. That wasn't your question though.James Buchanannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5249997465016074955.post-78685254358575468662014-12-15T02:07:57.896-08:002014-12-15T02:07:57.896-08:00I do think Byron Sharp's work has added a lot ...I do think Byron Sharp's work has added a lot to the understanding of how brands grow.Jimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5249997465016074955.post-6132570842806864292014-12-15T01:58:45.209-08:002014-12-15T01:58:45.209-08:00Bob,
That's great: gave me a whole new angle ...Bob,<br /><br />That's great: gave me a whole new angle on Bernbach's quote:<br />"Advertising is fundamentally persuasion and persuasion happens to be not a science, but an art."<br />William Bernbachdave trottnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5249997465016074955.post-18188766572943924922014-12-15T01:35:04.183-08:002014-12-15T01:35:04.183-08:00Bob, what do you think about modes of measurement?...Bob, what do you think about modes of measurement? What are the best ways to measure things? Where does the measurement end?<br />For example, pharma drugs, many of these tests that prove their effectiveness I think have to be called into question, especially when the tests are funded by the companies selling them. <br />What I'm basically saying is, are cars safer now? and if they are... has this led to more drivers...and as a side-effect of safer cars meaning more cars on the road, has it made it MORE dangerous for pedestrians...thus one could argue the bottom line is that cars aren't safer. and there has not been any progress. everything 'feels' like we've basically gone/going-deeper into the rabbit hole of modern life and fucked ourselves in our butts so hard, that we can't feel it any more.MAYBE TOMORROWnoreply@blogger.com